Cannondale's Stud Update Kit Instructions.

[jschner]

Special Thanks to Carl Moore of ACE Racing. He scanned and sent in the Cannondale dealer instuctions for the stud update kit. This will help those who are doing it themselves. If you have questions post them in this thread.

http://www.cannondaler.com/articles/ace/studkit01.php

[cannondale27]

Thanks for posting that!I never recieved a kit and supposedly they are all out.I cant quite read the torque values what are they in Nm?

[jschner]

Nuts are 24 ft-lbs
Bolts are 17 ft-lbs

[Bruce McCrary]

Thanks for posting that!I never recieved a kit and supposedly they are all out.I cant quite read the torque values what are they in Nm?

I've got the studs, nuts & bolts on the way. I'm working on putting together a 'kit' of my own that will include gaskets and everything needed to do the job, EXCEPT the new scavanger pump cover.

As soonas the parts get here I'll post it and let eveyone know.

[cannondale27]

Great when you get them made I am sure some will be ordered by me.Question for Bruce and Ace guys would you be interested in helping to convince stage 8 to make a kit for us or what route are you going to do with your customers motors if they bring them to you?

[jamiesel]

would a billit scav pump cover work?

[Bruce McCrary]

Question for Bruce and Ace guys would you be interested in helping to convince stage 8 to make a kit for us or what route are you going to do with your customers motors if they bring them to you?

I'll be glad to do whatever I can, but it will most likely be limited to email or phone calls. Unless Stage 8 has a small opening order our dealership is not in a position to be making a bulk order to get the ball rolling, sorry. Plus, I really committed us to a different direction when I ordered the hardware for these 12 kits I'm working on. I'll have to deal with them before I can go in a different direction.

Maz mentioned using green loc-tite on the studs and nuts, and I'm curious about how that might work. See, I'm still in the very early stages of this, and I want to speak to Jim before I start quoting prices and 'spamming' the group, but based on the information I got on the phone when I placed the order for the hardware I think these 'kits' are going to be more than reasonably priced, and might even border on being cheap...errr inexpencive.

If so, and the pieces that I'm getting from Cannondale work well, especially if used with green loctite, it might be a cost effective way of doing the job.

I should be able to nail this all down by the early part of next week. I'll speak with Jim and then post my findings.

would a billit scav pump cover work?

Of course, but it would probably be very costly too. I'm under the impression that Maz and the ACE crew used a stock pump cover on the 'beast' and either modified it, or just simply used a bolt/screw with a smaller head size. I hope he or Kram might be able to fill us in on this. I've also been told that it shouldn't be difficult to modify the stock cover to make it work with the bolt supplied in the kit from Cannondale.

Even so, I've found a modified cover in a 'gab bag' of parts we aquired and have offered it for use as a templete if that would help at all. Heck the whole stud kit is probably in that box of parts, I just haven't found them yet.

I'll keep everyone posted.

[cannondale27]

Bruce the stock cover will work what exactly is modified on your cover.Is the flat bigger for 8mm stud and nut or is it the 5mm bolt flats or just reinforced or what?
The retaining kit we are trying to make still requires stud update kit and gaskets.(just a insurance factor for stud nuts and tranny bolts)I will not be selling them I hope stage 8 will sell direct.

[Bruce McCrary]

I don't know what the differance in them is. I've got access to a digital camera now a days, so I'll take some pics and post them. Hows that?

[MAZmx248]

The updated cover has only a few mm of matl. removed to give room for the flange on the nut, the original hex head bolt fit perfectly and the flange adds prob 3 mmto the over all size of recess needed.
I really feel like I could modify the cover to work, simply using a good dremmel tool, it really isnt that tough.
The engine that I just did for ACE and didnot have the updated cover... I simply used a grade10 locknut, that did not have a flange on it...it fine fine, yes it was tight but I was able to get a socket on it firm enough to get the required torque.
LocTite...I dont want you guys to think I am an idiot, but I know what green loctite is used for... and it chemically bonds like JBweld, but IT CAN be broken down with extreme heat, engine heat will not break it down, but a torch can and the bolt/nut can then be broken loose and removed, in the event that you need to remove these nuts at some point.
I perfer the green for this application because, what are we talking about...nuts that we don not want to come loose, and some of you know...if they come loose... the cost will be thousands of dollars in the worst case senario... it is a chance I do not want to take.
They will not come loose w/ green loctite on them. Follow the cure time
approx 8 hours at room temp (72F) and you can sleep well at nite.

I would be happy to help the cause with the stage8 guys, but I personally am only using the factory updated parts kits...(well actually one of my own)
and green loctite. I have seriously considered safety wiring them as well, but I think I have talked myself out of it.
I really feel that the studs and nuts, proper torque, and a drop of green goo will do the trick. That combined w/ the fact that i will be looking at them prob twice a year is good enough for me.
Sounds like Bruce is putting something together as far as his own kit
and with the info that Carl Moore had Jim post here on the site, following the instructions to a tee (i.e; stud height and torque, etc.)
I feel that this fix is a good one and not just a band-aid, that will evenually fail.
- MAZ

[jamiesel]

not to continue this thread needlessly but if this green locktight is basicly like welding the engine together, why would we even need the stud update kit. I mean wouldn't the allens be fine with this knarly stuff?

[MAZmx248]

well, studs w/ nuts are different that a bolt where the threads disappear and the only thing exposed is the head of the bolt. With the nut installed on the stud, you can still expose the flame of a torch onto the threads.
green loctite is not intended for nuts/bolts that you may want to remove again.
This is just something i learned over the years.
There are a dozen options here. I am only making suggestions, and voicing my opinions.
- MAZ

[Bruce McCrary]

green loctite is not intended for nuts/bolts that you may want to remove again. - MAZ

Pretend I'm an idiot for a moment, yeah yeah, not much of a stretch I know, but are you saying to use the green stuff on the studs where they go into the case, and above where the nuts go on?

I'll be using the factory update as well, and I know that I'm going to have to walk our tech through this the first time. So I need to get my duckies in a row.

Thanks!

[cannondale27]

Maz,
I got some bad advice from someone about the green loctite.I did a little experimenting on the motor I am doing now.I too thought the green seemed stronger than red he said I was wrong and the bottle said for press fits.I tried both and the green worked better.Green 609,red271 I believe the whole problem behind these bolts backing out is the fit of the thread to the bolt on this motor the crankplate threads(all of them even the ones that were still torqued tight) were noticably looser fit than the tranny plate threads with stud or bolt screwed almost all way in they are very sloppy.I believe that loctite cures without air if these threads are too loose the loctite will never cure.I plan on getting a go-nogo thread guage from work to check the threads.In the mean time I put the green in bolt hole and on the stud when I get them all in I tilt motor forward so loctite doesnt all drain into pocket behind bolt/stud seems to work well the one were there is thread damage I put two HeliCoils in(couldnt find a long enough one)I cleaned and cleaned holes and plan on letting the studs cure over night at about 70 deg before I torque the nuts on.What do you think?This is my first stud update and I am looking at having to do at least two to three more machines I want to do them right.I wish I could get some of the real cannondale stud kits.Could you at least post a picture of the nuts and studs?Do they fit the threads tighter or are they standard 8x1.25 threads?I will delete my comment about green in previous post so no one gets confused.

[jamiesel]

Well if there are bad threads causing the loctite not to set up, Southbay's idea of making new holes sounds pretty good to me.